John Woo Unbound: The RED CLIFF Interviews
(John Woo, above.)By Terry Keefe
Director John Woo tells a story in the interview below about one major difference between his experience working on Hollywood blockbusters, and making Red Cliff (Chi Bi), his blockbuster-sized film which he shot in China with strong support from the Chinese government: he never had to sit through endless development meetings. He simply said he wanted to make the film, came up with a budget, received financing, and shot it. As someone who actually was a [very junior level] studio development executive at one time, I loved hearing this. The process by which films are created today at the studios, as it has been for a few decades now, is ridiculously time-consuming and both financially and creatively wasteful. Practically every script “fast“-tracked for production goes through a gauntlet of seemingly endless story notes in which not only the director, but also the studio, the producer, the stars, and sometimes the producer’s wife and mistress have input. I took part in more meetings of this type than I can count, or care to. The thought of someone like John Woo, who came to Hollywood as an established brand name in most of the world, having to go through this process to get a movie made is simply depressing. Understandably, the studios are concerned about rolling the dice on a blockbuster-sized budget and then getting Heaven’s Gate, but within a certain genre, in Woo’s case that would be action, and within a certain budget….someone like Woo has earned the right to a certain level of free reign. If he were making a musical, okay, then bring on the studio notes by the box. But action? And on budget? Just be glad you have him and get out of the way.
Despite their huge budgets, Woo’s Hollywood studio films often felt like he was directing with shackles on. There were bright spots certainly - Face/Off and Broken Arrow were both big hits and highly enjoyable - but even in those two films, you could also feel the weight of all the machinery and corporate structure that Woo had to navigate through. Obviously, his famed run of Hong Kong films (including A Better Tomorrow I & II, The Killer, Bullet in the Head, and Hard Boiled) were done on lower budgets and there is a kinetic energy that goes into the production of a film done by the seat of one’s pants. But rarely did he feel like he was cutting loose in his Hollywood work, and cutting loose is the definition of what made John Woo a legend long before he ever had to prove himself to Hollywood by directing Jean-Claude Van Damme in Hard Target in 1993. Yikes.
Happily, Red Cliff is both a return to form for Woo, and a significant evolution in production scale for him, as this is a massive period war epic, the most expensive Asian-financed film to date, in fact. The basic story behind Red Cliff goes back to 208 AD and the legendary Battle of Red Cliff, which has sort of evolved through the ages into a combination of actual history and mythology, reminding at times of an Asian version of the Battle of Troy. A novel called Romance of the Three Kingdoms helped to immortalize the story over seven hundred years ago, and there have been countless retellings and reinterpretations of it in the centuries since, including numerous video games, novels, and comic books.
(Woo at work on Red Cliff, above.)
The story of Red Cliff kicks off with the feared General Cao Cao (Zhang Fengyi) seeking to finally consolidate the Han dynasty by conquering two warlords who have stood in his path, Liu Bei (You Yong) and Sun Quan (Chang Chen). On the run after a ruinous battle with Cao Cao, Liu Bei seeks to form a military alliance with Sun Quan, but first must win the trust of Sun Quan’s viceroy, Zhou Yu (Tony Leung, reuniting with Woo for the first time since 1992’s Hard Boiled). Zhou Yu is a mighty warrior, whose wife Xiao Qiao (Chiling Lin) is regarded as the most beautiful woman in China, the Helen of Troy of her land and time. The two kingdoms do join together, but still face seemingly insurmountable odds against Cao Cao, requiring innovative military strategies, one after another. Woo has designed these battle sequences with great thought, rather than just overwhelming the senses with CGI-generated sound and fury. The strategy of each side in the battles is revealed, thrown against each other, and then we see how little tweeks in those strategies make the difference between victory and slaughter. Not to make Red Cliff sound like a dry exercise in medieval military planning - when Woo does cut loose in the countless action flourishes throughout Red Cliff, it is all the more exhilarating because he has earned it by slowly building the tension of the battle scenes, along with the storylines of both the lead and supporting characters. The version of Red Cliff that is being released theatrically in the United States is a two and half-hour cut, as opposed to the two-part, five-hour version released in most of Asia.
Note that there are plenty of SPOILERS ahead in terms of plot, as Woo discusses how various sequences were filmed.
You’ve done big movies before, but I don’t think anything quite on this scale. Were there moments where you looked out on the vast numbers of people and sets and extras and were daunted by what you had at your command?
John Woo: [laughs] Yes. We had over 2000 people working on the set. We even had real soldiers working with us. 700-1500 at times, almost every day. Playing warriors and fighters. But this was a movie I had wanted to make for many years. Also, I had been working in Hollywood for over 16 years with so many good people here, and I thought it was about time to bring what I had learned in Hollywood, to Asia. There are so many young filmmakers in China, who are all eager to learn. They have such a passion about movies, and they all want to work on big-budget Hollywood type movies. So, I thought this was a great opportunity for them also. They have the same type of working style as Hollywood, but all they need is the opportunity.
(Chiling Lin, above.)
You created some physically impossible shots, such as the when the carrier pigeon is released and we fly along with the pigeon (In a scene in which the bird travels across the battlefields and opposing camps, laying out the topography of the land.). I thought that was an interesting contrast, because so much of what you have in this film is so obviously physically there. But you must have had to use computer images to create those otherwise impossible shots. How do you find the balance between what you are able to do on the computer and what you want to have physically in front of the camera?
We shot a lot of real live action on the set, and we also used computer technology to add more people and more battleships. I think the team did a very job, and were very clever, in combining the real, live action and the CG. It’s usually hard for the audience to tell which is which. There are some obvious fake moments where the camera follows the pigeon over the enemy’s sides and across the river. That shot was trying to show the geography of both sides. It was if Red Cliff were in Los Angeles and the enemy was in New York, and we had to use this pigeon to connect them together. It became one of the most expensive CG shots in film history, because it was so long and there was so much movement. The other biggest movement was the ship sequence, in which the hero sets their boats on fire, a entire enemy navy of 2000 ships. Because of the direction of the wind, the entire enemy navy is set on fire. It was a brilliant strategy, and it was done with CG. A lot of detail. (In the final Battle of Red Cliff, the Navy of Cao Cao interlock their boats together, forming a blockade, but the Allied armies wait until the wind changes in their favor, and then ram the much larger Navy with “fire boats,” which set the entire Navy ablaze.)
In terms of getting the details right, there are different countries that know of this story, and there are also different comic book versions of it. But what was most important to you in terms of the details when you were writing it yourself?
There were a lot of characters, and I had to make a lot of changes. Actually, I didn’t do that much to follow the book and history. Originally, all those characters in history, they were pretty much like gods, or legends. Always serious. People admired them and no one would want to make a joke of them, because people would find it so offensive. But I wanted to make the film more international, and that’s why I made the characters more human, instead of super heroes. I wanted the modern audience to be able to relate to them. And also, I increased the female role, which didn’t exist in the book. The movie is all about team work, and I thought the women should have their contributions. I also wanted to show that the classic Chinese women were known for their beauty, but they were also had very strong personalities. Just like women nowadays. They are very brave, and smart, and can take on all sorts of challenges. They can sometimes do a much better job than men [laughs]. I didn’t much follow the book. I realized that I wasn’t making a television series for the History Channel. I am making a movie. A movie should have its own message.
Is it controversial in China to see the story changed so much?
It has some controversy about it, the way it was changed. Some people didn’t feel comfortable with it. And some people were expecting to watch a historical film. But it was a small group of people who didn’t feel comfortable with it, and in general, the younger audience…they love it. Especially the European audience. They love the idea of increasing the female part. It’s very important for the movie.
I wanted to ask you about the scene with the interlocking boats. I’ve never seen anything like that before. Was that historically accurate?
Yes, that was from history, and also from the book. It was fascinating and a very clever strategy.
(The burning boats sequence, above.)
The elements played a big role in the strategies as well.
The elements were a major issue in the movie, like in the burning ship scene, where the enemy navy was set on fire because of the wind. That’s all because of the weather. That’s something I learned from [studying] Napoleon and Hitler. They lost wars because of the weather. That’s something that is also [different] from the book. With the boats. [In the book] one of the major characters says “Call the wind!” to win the war. It was kind of like he had super-powers. I wanted to do something different from the book [with that action]. Something more natural. More believable.
Are there significant differences between the versions released in different parts of the world?
Yes, the Asian people are so familiar with this part of history, and the characters, that we have much more time for developing the characters. In the Asian version, there are two love stories. However, the American audience, they aren’t as familiar with the history and characters…we decided to focus on the main story. We took out the love story with the Princess and the young soldier, and also trimmed down the side characters, and focused on one story. But it’s still the same story, the same excitement. Some people even feel that the American version is more exciting, and tighter. So, I’m very enthused with both versions.
Is it easier for you to make a film in the Hollywood system, or in Asia?
Let me put it this way - it’s always easier to make a movie like Red Cliff in Asia. In China, everything was so simple. I just went into the office and let them know I wanted to make a movie called Red Cliff, and they said, “Okay, let’s do it.” [laughs] It was that simple. And I didn’t have to take notes from anyone. I didn’t have to take any advice from anyone. I didn’t have to take any meetings. I just closed my door and worked with my team and did my own thing and made my own film. And also, we had great support from the government. We had soldiers, and all kinds of help from the local people. They also have the biggest studio in Asia. The size of Universal Studios with big sound stages, all types of facilities. Of course, one thing I miss about Hollywood is that everything is so professional. I love to work with the crew and I love to work with the actors. They’re so dedicated. The people in Hollywood have an open mind and they give a warm welcome to talents from all over the world. I learned so much. Of course, I never get used to all the meetings [laughs] and that there are so many people involved in the project [laughs] and how long it takes to make a decision. But there are great things in both places.
You say that there was no interference from the Chinese government, but they are well-known for not wanting certain things in movies. Did you have to trim anything down for the Chinese version, such as the lovemaking scene?
No, I didn’t have to trim anything down for the movie. Actually, they’re getting more open. They’re not that tough. They’re very reasonable. The only concern was the violence - I think it’s the same as other countries - because they really didn’t want to give any bad influence for the young people. They don’t have a ratings system. There’s a movie board, and any kind of movies are for all kinds of audiences. So, we just needed to pay a little attention to that. I didn’t want to show a guy chopping a head off, or something like that.
We live in a war-torn globe today. Since the movie broke box office records in China, and did well in Europe, do you think people are relating this story to what is going on in the world today?
I think so, and I hope so. Before I made this movie, I realized that the economy is getting worse, and affecting so many people. And I overheard some young people in Asia...they were so frustrated. They were all in a deep depression. Some young people didn’t know what to do, didn’t see much hope, didn’t see the future, and some people even gave up their life. It happened in Japan, Korea, Hong Kong, and other Asian countries. I felt so sad. I feel the young people need someone to care about them and they need encouraging. That’s why I hoped this might change their ideas. The movie was about a smaller army that could defeat a larger, more powerful enemy through a combination of teamwork, intelligence, and courage. I think it’s an encouraging movie. I just try to let young people know that they are not alone. There is always a friend. Just work together with your friends and family and take charge. There are always good people. The movie was such a success in China, and Japan, especially in Japan…some of these young people would cry in the movie, they were so moved by the story. And I would ask them “Why?” They would say that they were watching Tony Leung in the film, and they wished they could have a friend like him. Another important thing was that it was also a war movie, and I had wanted to stress that in war…there are no winners. Before, my kinds of movies, they were usually all about the tragic hero. Now, I’m more personal, as I’m getting in age [laughs], I care more about what people really think, and what people really want, when I make a movie.
Which version of the film will we see on the DVD in the U.S.?
I think they will release the 5-hour version in the States. They should.
There was a special section recently in The Hollywood Reporter that was presenting China as a real emerging filmmaking partner. Do you think that it’s finally happening that are real bridges of connection between Hollywood and China, and China is going to open up as a real force in the global industry?
I think so. The Chinese government is open to all kinds of foreign production. They have the biggest sound stage in Asia. A fine mixing room and visual effects team. The business is growing. Since Red Cliff was such a success in China, and also, other fantastic Chinese films…the audience wants to see all types of movies. They keep building theaters, and a lot more of the 3-D cinema [laughs].
The instant philosophical connection to this film is to Sun Tzu’s Art of War. I’m wondering if there was any formal association to that. If you had immersed yourself in that text at all, or if it had come about naturally as a way of telling the story?
It’s a little of both, actually. After studying Sun Tzu’s Art of War, I had gotten some ideas, for designing the battle scenes, like the “turtle formation.” (During the Battle of San Jiang Kou, Sun Quan’s tough young sister, Sun Shangxiang [Zhao Wei] ambushes Cao Cao’s forces and leads them through a dust storm into a trap, the turtle/tortoise formation, in which the horseback soldiers of Cao Cao ride inside of the Allied Army, who have arranged themselves in a formation resembling that of a turtle.)
How had your working relationship with Tony Leung changed, or not, from when you last worked together years ago?
I was so happy to work with him again. He had become more mature, and even more charming [laughs]. He has the same kind of charisma, but this time, he feels more calm, more stable, and he cares more about the others. He’s a man with a big heart. We’ve known each other for such a long time, that we don’t need to say much. We sort of just look at each other and do it.
(Below, Tony Leung in 1992's Hard Boiled, and then in Red Cliff.)
Would you ever want to return to Hong Kong cinema?
I don’t think so. I prefer to make more movies in China, because Hong Kong is so limited. It’s hard to do anything else. There aren’t much in locations, or much in history. All you can do is keep repeating the same thing, but in China, there is so much interesting history and culture and so many different things. I’m still learning. I like to work in different countries and different cultures, and make new friends. In the future, I will maybe make a French, or German, or Turkish movie [laughs]. I want to make films in different places.
You’ve mentioned that your next project is going to be Flying Tigers.
It’s a World War II movie. It’s about an American volunteer team, who are working with the Chinese Air Force, to fight the Japanese during wartime, and they worked together so well, and they gave a lot of contributions, and they won the war. The main story is about friendship, the friendship between the Chinese and the Americans. It’s going to be a very challenging project. Just like Red Cliff [laughs]. There are going to be huge air battle scenes, a lot extra people, but also a lot of human moments.
Red Cliff will be released theatrically in the United States via Magnet on November 20th and is currently available via VOD. The official website is here, and the trailer is below:
Maggie Cheung in Ashes of Time: Redux. 
